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	<title>Comments for Swimming the Sacred River</title>
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	<link>http://www.sacredriver.org</link>
	<description>Exploring a nontheistic spirituality grounded in naturalism and humanism</description>
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		<title>Comment on Dawkins&#8217; Ten Commandments by Dunham Lockhart</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/582/dawkins-ten-commandments#comment-4083</link>
		<dc:creator>Dunham Lockhart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 14:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=582#comment-4083</guid>
		<description>Where do you think us atheists come from? We are a growing population because more and more members of other faiths are doubting what they have been told since child hood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where do you think us atheists come from? We are a growing population because more and more members of other faiths are doubting what they have been told since child hood.</p>
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		<title>Comment on On Woo by joe</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/754/on-woo#comment-4060</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=754#comment-4060</guid>
		<description>Ash,
I agree and this is a favorite post.. one thing.. I would think homeopathy and chiropractic might, at least at times be based on questionable science.. esp. homeopathy.. I don&#039;t think its so much magical thinking or woo as just poor science. Chiropractic has been found to be applicable and medically helpful for some people some times. I do agree it seems to attract a lot of people who are attracted to Woo though.. some of the crazy stuff I&#039;ve heard chiropractors say.. geezz.. it totally discredits them. 
Homeopathy.. I really no experience with so can&#039;t say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ash,<br />
I agree and this is a favorite post.. one thing.. I would think homeopathy and chiropractic might, at least at times be based on questionable science.. esp. homeopathy.. I don&#8217;t think its so much magical thinking or woo as just poor science. Chiropractic has been found to be applicable and medically helpful for some people some times. I do agree it seems to attract a lot of people who are attracted to Woo though.. some of the crazy stuff I&#8217;ve heard chiropractors say.. geezz.. it totally discredits them.<br />
Homeopathy.. I really no experience with so can&#8217;t say.</p>
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		<title>Comment on God Language and Religious Naturalism by The &#8220;Spiritual&#8221; Nature of 11 November 2011 or &#8220;11/11/11&#8243; &#124; Moving On Up a Little Higher</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/679/god-language-and-religious-naturalism#comment-3578</link>
		<dc:creator>The &#8220;Spiritual&#8221; Nature of 11 November 2011 or &#8220;11/11/11&#8243; &#124; Moving On Up a Little Higher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2011 00:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=679#comment-3578</guid>
		<description>[...] naturalist, I am also against the use of spiritual language to describe every day phenomena (yes, that includes &#8220;god-language&#8221;), so it is my goal in this paragraph to dismantle the bullshit that 11/11/11 is more spiritual than [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] naturalist, I am also against the use of spiritual language to describe every day phenomena (yes, that includes &#8220;god-language&#8221;), so it is my goal in this paragraph to dismantle the bullshit that 11/11/11 is more spiritual than [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Frames and Religious Language by The &#8220;Spiritual&#8221; Nature of 11 November 2011 or &#8220;11/11/11&#8243; &#124; Moving On Up a Little Higher</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/803/frames-and-religious-language#comment-3566</link>
		<dc:creator>The &#8220;Spiritual&#8221; Nature of 11 November 2011 or &#8220;11/11/11&#8243; &#124; Moving On Up a Little Higher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=803#comment-3566</guid>
		<description>[...] a religious naturalist, I am also against the use of spiritual language to describe every day phenomena (yes, that includes &#8220;god-language&#8221;), so it is my goal in this paragraph to dismantle [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a religious naturalist, I am also against the use of spiritual language to describe every day phenomena (yes, that includes &#8220;god-language&#8221;), so it is my goal in this paragraph to dismantle [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Video: Atheist Spirituality by Scott Burton</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/766/video-atheist-spirituality#comment-3435</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Burton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=766#comment-3435</guid>
		<description>Hi.  Thankyou for your inspiring, beautiful, video.  I am a theist (progressive Christian) and I thank the God you don&#039;t believe in for people just like you.  We are fellow hughmans working it all out together as we go.  Warmest best wishes to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi.  Thankyou for your inspiring, beautiful, video.  I am a theist (progressive Christian) and I thank the God you don&#8217;t believe in for people just like you.  We are fellow hughmans working it all out together as we go.  Warmest best wishes to you.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Frames and Religious Language by slain</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/803/frames-and-religious-language#comment-2843</link>
		<dc:creator>slain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2011 14:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=803#comment-2843</guid>
		<description>- &quot;I’m happy to say that this project is already underway by people 
far more influential and intelligent than I.&quot;

Who do you have in mind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>- &#8220;I’m happy to say that this project is already underway by people<br />
far more influential and intelligent than I.&#8221;</p>
<p>Who do you have in mind?</p>
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		<title>Comment on A science-y god by Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/787/a-science-y-god#comment-2749</link>
		<dc:creator>Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 17:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=787#comment-2749</guid>
		<description>It seems like we agree on some things, but for different reasons. I propose that religion as we know it (i.e. grounded in belief in the supernatural and adherence to scripture) will fade for two primary reasons: (1) because belief in the supernatural will fade, as it already is in much of Europe, and (2) because as the general standard of living in the world increases, the drive for religion will be overcome by other concerns. 

My question could thus be reworded to ask: when enough people recognize that there is no reason to believe in any gods or other supernatural constructs, will religion transform itself or will it simply go away? I suspect that it will be the latter, since that is what we see in societies where a large percentage of people give up religious faith. 

But there is a structural role that religion plays that is beneficial in some ways. Although science will eventually become the de facto source for knowledge about the world, including morality, there will nevertheless be a need for community, celebration, and an opportunity for shared reverence. Will religion transform itself to fulfill these functions, or will other kinds of social structures spring up? I don&#039;t know, but I&#039;m curious. 

&lt;i&gt;Religions have nothing to do with God.&lt;/i&gt;

That is a hard claim to defend. The great majority of religions, and religious people, equate their religion with a belief in a god. If religions stopped promoting faith in gods, I suspect atheism would rise dramatically (not because of deconversions, but because children wouldn&#039;t be indoctrinated to believe in the first place). 

&lt;i&gt;But that does not mean God stops existing.&lt;/i&gt;

The problem is we&#039;ve yet to determine that one exists at all. Until that happens, it&#039;s rational to accept the naturalist position. 

&lt;i&gt;All this was once the size of a pin head (according to scientists !!). It doesn’t make sense?&lt;/i&gt;

Be careful about defending beliefs based on ignorance. Just because you yourself do not understand something (astrophysics in this case) doesn&#039;t say anything about whether or not scientific claims are true. Read up on something first before dismissing it...Wikipedia has a good synopsis on the Big Bang Theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Because I&#039;ve studied cosmology as a layman, it makes perfect sense to me. When we look at the evidence, the conclusion of the Big Bang is unavoidable. Every experiment we&#039;ve conducted to test the theory has only come out in support of it, although we have learned other things along the way that were unexpected...like the fact that the universe is not only expanding, but accelerating! That&#039;s pretty amazing to think about. 

That&#039;s why I think a science-y religion is possible (if not likely), because what we learn about reality is vastly more bizarre, terrifying, and beautiful than any story in a holy book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems like we agree on some things, but for different reasons. I propose that religion as we know it (i.e. grounded in belief in the supernatural and adherence to scripture) will fade for two primary reasons: (1) because belief in the supernatural will fade, as it already is in much of Europe, and (2) because as the general standard of living in the world increases, the drive for religion will be overcome by other concerns. </p>
<p>My question could thus be reworded to ask: when enough people recognize that there is no reason to believe in any gods or other supernatural constructs, will religion transform itself or will it simply go away? I suspect that it will be the latter, since that is what we see in societies where a large percentage of people give up religious faith. </p>
<p>But there is a structural role that religion plays that is beneficial in some ways. Although science will eventually become the de facto source for knowledge about the world, including morality, there will nevertheless be a need for community, celebration, and an opportunity for shared reverence. Will religion transform itself to fulfill these functions, or will other kinds of social structures spring up? I don&#8217;t know, but I&#8217;m curious. </p>
<p><i>Religions have nothing to do with God.</i></p>
<p>That is a hard claim to defend. The great majority of religions, and religious people, equate their religion with a belief in a god. If religions stopped promoting faith in gods, I suspect atheism would rise dramatically (not because of deconversions, but because children wouldn&#8217;t be indoctrinated to believe in the first place). </p>
<p><i>But that does not mean God stops existing.</i></p>
<p>The problem is we&#8217;ve yet to determine that one exists at all. Until that happens, it&#8217;s rational to accept the naturalist position. </p>
<p><i>All this was once the size of a pin head (according to scientists !!). It doesn’t make sense?</i></p>
<p>Be careful about defending beliefs based on ignorance. Just because you yourself do not understand something (astrophysics in this case) doesn&#8217;t say anything about whether or not scientific claims are true. Read up on something first before dismissing it&#8230;Wikipedia has a good synopsis on the Big Bang Theory: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang</a></p>
<p>Because I&#8217;ve studied cosmology as a layman, it makes perfect sense to me. When we look at the evidence, the conclusion of the Big Bang is unavoidable. Every experiment we&#8217;ve conducted to test the theory has only come out in support of it, although we have learned other things along the way that were unexpected&#8230;like the fact that the universe is not only expanding, but accelerating! That&#8217;s pretty amazing to think about. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I think a science-y religion is possible (if not likely), because what we learn about reality is vastly more bizarre, terrifying, and beautiful than any story in a holy book.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A science-y god by Marten</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/787/a-science-y-god#comment-2748</link>
		<dc:creator>Marten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 May 2011 11:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=787#comment-2748</guid>
		<description>You said:
Can religion survive without faith?

Or course it can. Do we want religion? No, we do not. but I don&#039;t understand what the human construction of religion has to do with God?
Spirituality is completely different, and perfecting ones self. But I believe in God, but I think Religion is the cause of most of the worlds fear. Religion is dying, thank God!

You said:
But I suspect that what we now call religion will go the way of the dodo bird within a few generations.

I agree completely! Lets hope it does!! Religions have nothing to do with God. You see all life is a school. I know this sounds patronizing, but bear with me..

Some children, are younger than others, and they need kindergarten. Kindergarten we can replace here with worshiping rocks and trees type of religion. Other children are ready for the bigger school, but they are still young, lets say jewish or catholic religion. Other kids are ready for senior school, say buddism etc now the most advaced student are out of school, and do not need a religion. 

But that does not mean God stops existing. These advanced students have a personal relationship with God, and they wish to continue to grow, spiritually. I can see you with to grow also, but in your own particular way.

The universe, they say, comes from a tiny point which (scientists say) is smaller than a pin head??? but the universe is far far bigger than anyone believed before. Astronomers have recently discovered this. The universe is littered with billions, and billions, and billions of Galaxies, and each Galaxy contains millions and millions of stars. We are on the outer arm of a spiral of on of these galaxies. All this was once the size of a pin head  (according to scientists !!). It doesn&#039;t make sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You said:<br />
Can religion survive without faith?</p>
<p>Or course it can. Do we want religion? No, we do not. but I don&#8217;t understand what the human construction of religion has to do with God?<br />
Spirituality is completely different, and perfecting ones self. But I believe in God, but I think Religion is the cause of most of the worlds fear. Religion is dying, thank God!</p>
<p>You said:<br />
But I suspect that what we now call religion will go the way of the dodo bird within a few generations.</p>
<p>I agree completely! Lets hope it does!! Religions have nothing to do with God. You see all life is a school. I know this sounds patronizing, but bear with me..</p>
<p>Some children, are younger than others, and they need kindergarten. Kindergarten we can replace here with worshiping rocks and trees type of religion. Other children are ready for the bigger school, but they are still young, lets say jewish or catholic religion. Other kids are ready for senior school, say buddism etc now the most advaced student are out of school, and do not need a religion. </p>
<p>But that does not mean God stops existing. These advanced students have a personal relationship with God, and they wish to continue to grow, spiritually. I can see you with to grow also, but in your own particular way.</p>
<p>The universe, they say, comes from a tiny point which (scientists say) is smaller than a pin head??? but the universe is far far bigger than anyone believed before. Astronomers have recently discovered this. The universe is littered with billions, and billions, and billions of Galaxies, and each Galaxy contains millions and millions of stars. We are on the outer arm of a spiral of on of these galaxies. All this was once the size of a pin head  (according to scientists !!). It doesn&#8217;t make sense?</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Four Virtues by Wedding Suits For Women</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/470/the-four-virtues#comment-2732</link>
		<dc:creator>Wedding Suits For Women</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2011 11:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=470#comment-2732</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Discount Kasper Suits...&lt;/strong&gt;

[...]below are some urls to web pages we link to because we think they will be truly worth visiting[...]...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Discount Kasper Suits&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[...]below are some urls to web pages we link to because we think they will be truly worth visiting[...]&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on A science-y god by Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.sacredriver.org/787/a-science-y-god#comment-2722</link>
		<dc:creator>Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2011 23:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sacredriver.org/?p=787#comment-2722</guid>
		<description>Thanks for pitching in, Martin. 

My actual point in this post was to posit the question of what role religion might have in a world that no longer needs gods or other supernatural constructs to explain natural phenomena. In other words, can religion survive without faith? I&#039;m not sure it can. Or perhaps what we now think of as religion will somehow transform itself to become naturalistic and yet also supportive in all the positive ways that religion currently serves (e.g. community, purpose, meaning, etc).  The good news is that the number of people abandoning supernaturalism is growing, as are organizations that cater to secularists. But I suspect that what we now call religion will go the way of the dodo bird within a few generations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for pitching in, Martin. </p>
<p>My actual point in this post was to posit the question of what role religion might have in a world that no longer needs gods or other supernatural constructs to explain natural phenomena. In other words, can religion survive without faith? I&#8217;m not sure it can. Or perhaps what we now think of as religion will somehow transform itself to become naturalistic and yet also supportive in all the positive ways that religion currently serves (e.g. community, purpose, meaning, etc).  The good news is that the number of people abandoning supernaturalism is growing, as are organizations that cater to secularists. But I suspect that what we now call religion will go the way of the dodo bird within a few generations.</p>
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